Welcome to Our Community

Some features disabled for guests. Register Today.

Going vertical?

Discussion in 'Concepts and Ideas' started by Balu, Oct 19, 2014.

  1. Balu

    Balu Veteran
    Builder

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2014
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    26
    One big problem I'm having with most common router designs is lack of space to put them. I'm living in a 45sqm appartment and really need to use every space I've got as effectively as possible.

    Most CNC designs waste a lot of room because they are simply a big table that you can't use for something else unless you misuse them as storage / working table and have to clean it up before every use.

    Because of that I thought about what would be a more compact design. For storage in small appartments the organizing specialists always hint to use the wall up to the ceiling. So why not do that with a CNC table too and make it vertical? If you buy wood panels in a home improvement store you might have seen their sawing "table". It's basically a saw mounted on a XY-gantry on a slightly tilted (10-15 degrees?) vertical system so they can lean the wood against it without having to worry about it toppling over.

    Having no experience with the Openbuilds parts at all I wonder how something like this could be build and what its pros and cons are.

    Some things that ran through my mind last night - while I was supposed to sleep.
    • Should be as flexible as the Ox in size
    • Vertical gantry - slightly tilted (15 degrees?)
    • Belts for vertical movement will probably stretch fast, so lead screw?
    • Could a counterweight help with lifting?
    • Which axis should be vertical?
      • Y to save on lead screw and motor?
      • X to spread the vertical load on two sides?
    • Which should be the longer axis? Does it even matter?
    • I don't see problems with routers, but what about tools like drag knives?
    • This would be called "vOx" - as in vertical Ox ;)
    If I decide to build something like that I'd need to have a 1000 x 700 cutting area, so it would be a 1500 x 1000 equivalent Ox, right?

    Just a short disclaimer: I'm not even sure if I will be able to build one in the future because of money (and well - space ;) ). It's just some idea I had and thought I'd start a little discussion on.

    So what do you guys think?
     
  2. Serge E.

    Serge E. Master
    Builder

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    230
    The one issue I can see is fighting gravity to move the router (or other tool end) up the wall (I would do Y, there's two steppers to help). Moving sideways (regular X) and in/out (regular Z) should not be affected. So it probably would be good to keep the Y (up/down wall) at a minimum. Although, once you have the gravity conquered, going the full 1500mm limit of existing V-slot length should not be too big of a step up. Maybe rack and pinion for the up/down ??

    At first, I was thinking of having myOX stored vertically against a wall, swinging it down on a solid stand into a working mode, a bit like those hide away beds. o_O No gravity to fight against when working, just need room when folded down... Hides out of the way when at rest. It would not need much room ... :cool:

    Any OX at work will make chips (and dust), so it should probably stay in the garage rather than a living area as seen in some builds. Of course, one could slide/roll their OX under the bed. If Z is not too tall or the bed is high enough, the hidden OX could work away under the bed, keeping chips/dust there as well. :confused: Might need good ear plugs to sleep through a job. :sleepy:
     
  3. Balu

    Balu Veteran
    Builder

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2014
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    26
    Hm. Did I mix up the axes again? Z is the tool moving up down, Y is the one where Z is mounted and X is the two rails Y slides on? So X has the two steppers?

    Your "folding" mechanism sounds nice too, but it would make the router hang on the belts most of the time (when stored away), so they would probably stretch out faster.

    Most of my work will probably be foamboard cutting (that's why I mentioned the drag knife), so I won't have a lot of dust flying around. That - and the noise issue - could easily be handled by having an acrylic glas cabinet around. Which would be even cooler. One could use it as an art piece that plots something while visitors are there... ;)

    My bed already is on wheels so I can push it unter a raised plattform when not in use. :)
     
  4. Serge E.

    Serge E. Master
    Builder

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    230
    I'm a southpaw, so it could be me mixing up my Y and X. Horizontally, Y is the back (+) and forth (-) movement, X is the left (-) and right (+) movement while Z is the up (+) and down (-) movement. What wast it again, one holds left hand with thumb up (Z+), index point away (Y+) and middle finger at 90 degrees to both, so to the right (X+).

    One could just 'park' the tool to its "lowest" position to minimize stretching of any belts while at rest (folded up).

    True, drag knife and such would not do as much dust or noise as CNC/milling. The tool should be lighter as well, so belt stretching less likely than with a heavy router or spindle. Gravity would also be less of a problem where you want to have the machine work vertically.

    I like the 'art piece showcase' twist ... could actually have the machine as the coffee table or even dining table ... :rolleyes: Add a few light rope for effects or mood lighting. ;)

    There's an other option : hide the bed under the raised machine, instead of the machine under the bed. The machine would not be that high off the ground either ...
     
  5. Rick 2.0

    Rick 2.0 OpenBuilds Team
    Staff Member Moderator Builder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,368
    Likes Received:
    545
    There's pretty much any of a number of possibilities here.

    The good side of a vertically mounted system would be gravity taking care of the cuttings. Just build it over a big hopper and let the chips fall where they may. You would definitely want the side rails vertical such that the chips could go straight down.

    Or you could build it like a Murphy bed, using it in the horizontal plane and flipping it up into a wall cabinet for storage, fundamentally a "MurphOX". And if you were to anodize that whole assembly blue, it would become a... (do I really need to say it?) :eek:
     
    TMG likes this.
  6. Serge E.

    Serge E. Master
    Builder

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    230
    LOL ... took a second to click in. Did find this bit of somewhat remotely related and quite recent CNC news.

    Well, ok, it isn't the CNC which we think of here. :duh: But it is about the blue and even DIY building ... with blocks. Maybe we should let go this tangent and go back to the subject of vertical machine layout.
     
  7. DiggerJ

    DiggerJ Master
    Builder

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2014
    Messages:
    410
    Likes Received:
    109
    I remember seeing a vertical CNC somewhere. He used 2 pulleys on the top of the sides with weights to offset the weight of the router and gantry. At that point any twist in the X would push the tool at the material. Put a dust show on the router and much of the mess should be collected as you go.

    I just wouldn't wanna be your neighbor!
     
  8. andrew

    andrew Journeyman
    Builder

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    17
    The new printrbot cnc takes an interesting approach to this orientation:
    http://printrbot.com/2014/09/18/printrbot-cnc-beta-testing/
    I like a lot of the design choices they made.

    The cheap 12v (10mm) led strips fit perfectly in the groove of a v-slot extrusion. Get the kind without silicone encapsulant and wrap with clear heat-shrink.:thumbsup:
     
  9. Rick 2.0

    Rick 2.0 OpenBuilds Team
    Staff Member Moderator Builder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,368
    Likes Received:
    545
    I really like the way the spindle works (and it gives me some ideas). But the vertical back plate appears to be little more than a gimmick. The video shows potential coolant problems with such a system, something that could only be overcome with a spindle mounted constant flow system. And they brag about how rigid the spindle system is but fail to see how laterally weak the back plate mounts are. I also wonder just how many takers they found at $3500 for the beta testing.
     
  10. Balu

    Balu Veteran
    Builder

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2014
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    26
    Serge E. likes this.
  11. Serge E.

    Serge E. Master
    Builder

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    230
    Holly c... 3500$ (!) to be one of the lucky ten people who will end up with a beta prototype to help finish the design so it can be brought to the market. Isn't this steeper than 12" or so of the vertical climb of the machine ? The dimensions indicated probably would be same counter space if left horizontal ... Are the lucky ten beta tester going to get a free final version as well ?

    Yap, using some of waterproof kind to light the edge my deck. Have some to have some added lighting under wall mounted cabinets in garage and ... actually just received the 5 meters length for myOX this very day. As I put myOX back together after some trimming the X beam's V-slot, the "mood" lighting will go in. Everything happens for a reason, eh ?

    Good point, better seal the lighting strip so any dust, especially if working aluminum, copper or, dare I say, steel ... would not want any metallic dust to short out the strip.

    The few lengths used for the deck was actually bought from a Canadian reseller and is proving not to be that waterproof, even when it is within a protective track to drive any moisture away. Maybe it is the snow at winter working it's way through as it sits there for a few weeks, a few winters in a row. I'll be replacing them with the direct from China version in the spring, most likely adding some clear tubing and silicon capping. It be at less than 20% of the original cost once all done. They even have much longer rolls than the usual 5 meters lengths for added savings.
     
    #11 Serge E., Oct 20, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2014
  12. Serge E.

    Serge E. Master
    Builder

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    230
    Now that is a vertical CNC machine ... about 5k$ for a complete setup, give or take a few hundreds depending on electronics and such. But it has a huge working area for 2.5D and has a foot print not much larger than myOX. Man, even my limited budget feels like going for one of these babies ... Lucky I'm not an impulse buyer, eh ?

    It is a well thought out design, even down to uneven garage floor, walls and using 16" on center wall studs for support. Loads of details are shared (assembly, etc.) No beta testing is required and much more working area. Leaves only one question : how stable would the precision be having all that MDF, in a garage environment, especially in the most critical Z assembly ?

    Imagine using some extra long extrusion (V-slot or otherwise) ... although that might bump the price up quite a bit.

    One could make their Green Lean CNC as wide and tall as there is free wall space in their garage. If, like my garage which has a 10.5' ceiling, one could have theirs truly vertically mounted to work on 4'x8' sheet standing up and only take about 5' of wall width. :cool::rolleyes:

    Oh, man ... what should I do (besides finishing myOX) ? :oops:
     
  13. andrew

    andrew Journeyman
    Builder

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2014
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    17
    The guys do sound like idiots in the video, I grant you that. The price is steep; I wouldn't buy it. But how about the idea of the tool mounting, imparting no angular momentum to the "X" axis? The base plate moving for the "Z" axis? This is not all that common in the machines we build. I'm not seeing the problem you see with coolant. I think most of us use coolant to aid chip removal. The vertical orientation reduces this need, and I think coolant would just drain to the pan. Lateral stabilization of the backplane seems fine to me; better than many Z axes. It has linear bearings at all four corners and is advanced by equally spaces screws. I'm not telling people to buy it, but could some of these ideas be worth pursuing?
     
  14. Rick 2.0

    Rick 2.0 OpenBuilds Team
    Staff Member Moderator Builder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,368
    Likes Received:
    545
    I use coolant to extend bit life and the problem with the coolant here is that it flows off too easily and thus would require a constant flow, something that would automatically be installed in professional systems but is a significant additional expense in low-budget hobbyist systems. Where I question the Z-axis is that is braced laterally (against X and Y movement) through the bending stiffness of small diameter rods which may allow chatter when the plate is midway up. For $3500, I would expect something far more substantial.
     
  15. JustinTime

    JustinTime Master
    Builder

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2013
    Messages:
    917
    Likes Received:
    180
    If you go to Home Depot or Lowe's or whatever and ask them to cut plywood to size for you, they cut it with a machine set up exactly like this one only instead of the saw being driven electronically it's done by hand. You could buy a frame like they use for about $1500 and add the electronics and...walla, a CNC machine. And out of metal to boot. :ROFL:
     
  16. Serge E.

    Serge E. Master
    Builder

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    230
    I thought I saw the layout somewhere before ;) Is it really all those frame really cost ? Man, could probably of got one for cheap when the local Rona closed down to become a liquidation centre for what they used to sell (with almost the same staff to boot).

    Then again, "cut to size" at one of those places is often a gamble hoping they at least don't undercut. Maybe it's just the operator not in any mood to be precise or the machine not being calibrated from time to time, but I only ask them to cut when I don't really care about being 1/2" or more off a cut. The smaller pieces are easier to transport and work with back in the garage.
     
  17. Balu

    Balu Veteran
    Builder

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2014
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    26
    That's the type of saw I've mentioned in my first post :). I don't think $ 1500 is enough for a setup like that.

    Also you have to ask them for a precision cut which usually is more expensive because it takes them more time to set it up than just eyeballing "a little over".
     
  18. Rick 2.0

    Rick 2.0 OpenBuilds Team
    Staff Member Moderator Builder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,368
    Likes Received:
    545
    You can get panel saws for as little as $900 but the lower the price, the smaller the back frame. A more reasonable $1300 model has a considerably larger frame but frame is still only 70" wide. The problem however is that the vertical slide is fixed at the center and does not move to the ends which makes it unusable as a CNC router. Doing a more reasonably priced knockoff of The Green Lean is really not that difficult using plywood for the back and V-slot for the slides. Sure you will have to counterbalance the spindle/router and thus overcome more substantial amount inertia but that is not insurmountable.
     
  19. Serge E.

    Serge E. Master
    Builder

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    230
    True. However, using plywood for the back would that not limit the working area to less than 4' x 8' where one was aiming for that much (as apparently done with the Green lean ? One could always special order a larger sheet of ply, MDF or whatnot; however, it would probably be expensive, heavy and not easy to get home. Then again, if one needs that big a machine, maybe price is less of an issue for them.

    Any thing is possible, as we see from these few examples... One just has to figure it out and plan through the build according to the resources available.
     
  20. Rick 2.0

    Rick 2.0 OpenBuilds Team
    Staff Member Moderator Builder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,368
    Likes Received:
    545
    You need to take a closer look at the green lean to follow what I was talking about. I wasn't referring to a plywood deck. All those ribs you see on the green lean are actually made of plywood.
     
  21. Serge E.

    Serge E. Master
    Builder

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    230
    I think I had questioned the dimensional stability, in a garage environment, of the material used, plywood, for a precision machine ... Maybe not as clearly.

    There are many DIY CNC machines being built with plywood and other such material. Just how precise are or how often does one have to calibrate these machines ? myOX shows being off just 1 mm can translate to ... what was it ... 17.5mm or so at the opposite end of the 1500 mm length of V-slot precision and relatively stable aluminum extrusion. Then again, the aluminum can also react to temperature changes ...
     
  22. steelspinner

    steelspinner Well-Known
    Builder

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    12
    Technically speaking, this discussion is about a horizontal machine not a vertical machine. It is called horizontal or vertical based on the orientation of the spindle. Horizontal machines have some big advantages over vertical machines. The first being chip clearing. Second and I think most important, is back lash. If you tilt the machine 1-2 degrees in line with the spindle (would be C axis), you have basically eliminated screw lash in 2 of the three axis just from the weight of the gantry/spindle. There are some design issues with horizontals, mostly bearing orientation and Y axis motor power (forget belts). Overall they are a solid design (I work on one almost everyday).

    Dave
     
  23. Balu

    Balu Veteran
    Builder

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2014
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    26
    Thanks for clearing that up, Dave. Can you perhaps take a few photos of your machine? :)
     
  24. steelspinner

    steelspinner Well-Known
    Builder

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    12
    I wish it was my machine :(. The company owns it, along with six of it horizontal brothers, 10 of its 5 axis brothers, 20 verticals, 60 lathes (live and standard), grinders, edms and a whole bunch of Mazak verticle, 5 axis and lathes. If it where mine, I would have lots of pictures of MY machines :banghead:.
     

    Attached Files:

  25. Serge E.

    Serge E. Master
    Builder

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    230
    Lots of machines there ... You must feel as if in heaven everytime you go work, eh ?

    Mori/Seiki have interesting concepts. Here is one of their 5 axis machine :

    [​IMG]

    The tool end only moves in two axis, X and Y. The piece being worked on is moved for Z as well as A and B axis. It makes for a big machine for a relatively small working volume, no ?

    One could make a 3 axis version for 2.5D work with not much depth being needed... Would need to hold the work piece, like a sign, firmly and move it forward and back the inch or so needed for 2.5D applications. If one can get away using a flat motor (as used in larger multicopters) for a spindle, I bet the machine could be squeezed in a space about 12" deep, if not less. :rolleyes: The work piece, or 'floating' vertical table holding it, would also act as a shield in case something goes wrong.

    Makes me wish I was already retired, with money to spare to play with these thoughts ...
     
  26. Rick 2.0

    Rick 2.0 OpenBuilds Team
    Staff Member Moderator Builder

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,368
    Likes Received:
    545
    Serge, if your looking for a small 5 axis consider...

    [​IMG]

    Sure at 13" it is a little bigger than you'd like but at 28 pounds it'll be far easier to set up on your workbench than the 82,000 pound monster you show above.
     
  27. steelspinner

    steelspinner Well-Known
    Builder

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    12
    If I was making things that I wanted to make it would be pretty close to machining heaven Serge, but when the man is breathing down your neck to make way too many ridiculously tight tolerance super complex aerospace parts out of materials that are tough to cut with a cutting torch let alone carbide, not so much. :mad:

    Rick, that little machine you posted has to be one of the best engineered hobby machines I have ever seen!! To bad it doesn't have a little more travel for X and Y.
     
  28. Serge E.

    Serge E. Master
    Builder

    Joined:
    May 6, 2014
    Messages:
    703
    Likes Received:
    230
    The pocketNC is certainly interesting ... and compact. But it comes at a cost too high for my wallet and a working volume too small for what I think I would do with one. I would need a work volume of at very least 20" x 12" x 8" ... The pocketNC most certainly can sit on top a desk, even at 28 lbs empty. Taking only 1/8" bit, it would take a while to rough out a volume before going through finishing pass.

    The behemoth previously shown was obviously way out of budget, garage capacity, etc. But it showed an interesting approach which might be interesting to see in an extrusion scale. Of course, it won't be as massive but could prove quite compact since X / Y could be 'vertical' (up/down, left/right a wall) while Z, often just to do 2.5D/engraving or cutting, would need minimal depth (away from wall) since it only needs to move the work piece forward/backward into the moving tool, for 2.5D, we're only talking a couple of inches ...
     
  29. TMG

    TMG Well-Known
    Builder

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2014
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    It does not only cost a lot of money, you neither get the experience/knowledge by building your own 5-axis CNC.
     
    Mark Carew likes this.
  30. Tweakie

    Tweakie OpenBuilds Team
    Staff Member Moderator Builder

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2014
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    297
    Quite right TMG - CNC users are a diverse group, for some it is the destination whilst for others it is the journey.

    Tweakie.
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    The OpenBuilds Team is dedicated helping you to Dream it - Build it - Share it! Collaborate on our forums and be sure to visit the Part Store for all your Building needs!
  • Like us on Facebook

  • Support Open Source FairShare Program!

    OpenBuilds FairShare Give Back Program provides resources to Open Source projects, developers and schools around the world. Invest in your future by helping others develop theirs!

    Donate to FairShare!